Top/bottom Sexual Dynamics and My Preferences

[lauren3210]

I’ve been thinking about writing a post about this for quite a while, mainly because every time I sign myself up to a gift fic fest such as hd_erised, I am never entirely sure what I want to say when it comes to my preferences. I mean, if anyone were to ask me which I prefer, I would say Top!Harry/bottom!Draco, however, some of my favourite H/D fics ever feature explicit Top!Draco/bottom!Harry, and I’ve been trying to figure out why that is for the longest time. And so, as I’m currently in the home stretch of my Erised fic and have a lot of other projects that could do with some time being spent on them, I am of course procrastinating terribly by thinking about this instead so, here I am!


As a multi-fandom shipper with a lot of ships under my belt, I tend to skip from one to the other during my fic reading time, and I’ve started to notice a bit of a pattern: I prefer the mouthy guy in the relationship to be the bottom. It’s not always the case, but in general that seems to be my preference. For example, I like my Sterek fics to feature a sarcastic, smart-mouthed Stiles, and a grumbly and frustrated Derek only managing to get him to shut the fuck up while he’s fucking him into incoherency. I like a Merlin running rings around his confused and irritated Arthur until Arthur pins him against a wall and sticks his tongue down his throat. I like a Steve McGarrett who is completely hypnotized by the movements of Danno’s hands during his many angry rants, until he pins those flailing hands behind Danno’s back. I like a Bucky who finds Steve’s sassy comebacks hilarious until they're directed at him, and then he needs to find another use for that mouth. I like a prim and put together Arthur who can only be reduced to a sweaty, blushing mess when Eames is whispering dirty things into his ear.

So it seems that, in general, I like the big, muscled, sometimes not entirely human, guy being pulled around by the chest hair by their sarcastic, mouthy, sometimes slighter counterpart. Or, in other words, I like the more physically capable guy fucking the more mentally capable guy, because that’s the only time in the relationship when they can get the upper hand. Maybe it’s because I recognize something in them about myself and my own relationship, I don’t know, but it does seem to be my thing. Everyone’s got their preferences though, I guess.

But there are some ships that just don’t fit that mold, and H/D is the most obvious one. I mean, you could possibly break them down into their simplest forms for them to fit – if all Harry was was a Quidditch player, then he could be the muscled guy, and Draco could be the mouthy sarcastic guy – but trying to do that feels very wrong to me, because that’s not how I see them at all.

As much as I believe that a person’s sexual preferences have nothing to do with how they act in real life – unassuming in the boardroom does not automatically translate into a submissive in the bedroom, nor does it mean the opposite – I do think that in fiction, sexual dynamics can be a useful tool for highlighting a character, or a relationship. And I think that this is what trips me up when it comes to H/D; because there are so many fanon interpretations of their relationship that my preferences fluctuate too much for me to generalize them. Unlike the vast majority of my other ships, who are at the very least friendly with each other (if not best friends) canonically, in the books the most civilized Harry and Draco get with each other is when they actively ignore each other, so there's really not much there for me to get a baseline for their romantic interactions.

So I think that, when my initial response is to say I prefer Top!Harry/bottom!Draco, I am actually trying to fit them into a generalization that I have made for myself through reading about other ships. Harry, with his ‘jump first, think later’ attitude, is more likely to fit the ‘physically capable’ role, and Draco, with his calculating schemes, is more likely to fit the ‘mentally capable’ role, and so my brain automatically slots them into those places. The only problem is that they can, and do, fit both of those roles depending on the story being told (maybe Harry’s an Auror, or maybe Draco is, or Harry’s a little bit lost post-war, and Draco’s a damn dragon-tamer), and so the sexual dynamic tool is used in a multitude of ways, because that is the beauty of story-telling.

So, at the end of my rambling musings, I guess my answer to the question of what my preferences are should be this:

I truly don’t care, as long as the sex fits the relationship, and the relationship fits the story.


Okay, I’m gonna go write now, because I’ve procrastinated long enough (damn it). Back to your regularly scheduled Friday night on LJ!

Comments

[gracerene]

Interesting! I totally had this "discussion" with myself a few years ago, when I was trying to figure out if I had a pattern to my preferences. Because I read widely in multiple fandom, and while I enjoy switching a bunch, I also almost always have a preference for who tops, sort of a push-comes-to-shove, what would I prefer to read. For me, I've realized that almost exclusively my preference tends to line up with the more morally ambiguous/evil of the pairing being the one fucking the good one. In some cases, it's pretty obvious, like with Draco/Harry and Loki/Thor, and in some cases it's a lot subtler and maybe influenced more by how I view the characters, like with Spock/Kirk (While definitely not evil at all, Spock is colder and more logical) and Adam/Ronan (Again, nobody's evil, but even though Ronan's more abrasive, it's totally hiding a cuddly heart, and Adam is more ambitious etc).

[oceaxe.livejournal.com]

OOooooh, interesting! That would explain my pref for Draco topping Harry, Eames topping Arthur and Bane topping Blake. I must meditate further on this!

[gracerene]

Haha, same! When I finally figured out what it was that linked all my preferences together, it was just like a lightbulb going off! It all made so much sense! :D

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

sort of a push-comes-to-shove, what would I prefer to read. -- yes, this exactly. I will absolutely read both, and you're never going to find me back-clicking due to who's fucking who, but yes, when push comes to shove, which is my fave, kind of thing.

And your preferences are super interesting, with the morality scale! And funny you bring up Loki/Thor, because they are a perfect example of my preferences - Thor being pretty much the embodiment of physical strength, while Loki's strength comes from his 'silver tongue', so obviously I prefer the opposite to you. (Although the hottest Thoki fic I ever read was a bottom!Thor, which I think you recced btw, so again, it doesn't always follow!)

[gracerene]

So interesting! I started trying to really figure out what worked for me, because in some fandoms I was totally into the more "masculine/buff/strong" dude fucking the mouthy one (Sterek, Merthur, etc.) and then some fandom I love the complete opposite (Thorki, Stony, etc.) and yeah, it pretty much came down to the morality thing. I just really love seeing the good guy who has the weight of the world on his shoulder getting to let go for a bit. :)

[birdsofshore]

Oh, gosh. I don't really have different fandoms, but this:

I've realized that almost exclusively my preference tends to line up with the more morally ambiguous/evil of the pairing being the one fucking the good one.

resonated for me, ahahaha. No surprise I agree with you on this important matter. I wonder though if it would transfer to other fandoms? Answer: probably. When I've read Johnlock, I like a toppy!Sherlock, although as usual, it's not the specific act so much as the dynamic. The act itself is not to be sniffed at, though, haha.

[gracerene]

Yes, I totally prefer toppy!Sherlock as well! It wasn't until I started shipping in other fandoms and realized that sometimes I enjoyed the more popular fandom dynamic, and sometimes my preference was the minority, and I was curious as to what drove my preference. There's nothing like the good guy having a chance to let go of it all. :D

[capitu]

LOL I love that you're thinking about this stuff. I won't even say you should be writing. :D

I had never tried to rationalise why I like one way better than the other, but something you said sort of ran true with me:

I prefer the mouthy guy in the relationship to be the bottom.

Is that why I had my bottom!Draco preference? I'm not sure, but I do like that sort of dynamic VERY much. :D

I obviously love reading both b!H and b!D, but I was just telling Grace how I've been missing more bottom!Draco this year, because with the absence of smooch fest, it kind of feels top!Draco has dominated my reading time – not a bad thing, just, yeah, as preferences go, what can I say, I have a spot for bottom!Draco all right. ;)

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

(I absolutely opened up my erised doc... and then logged onto GR to read some reviews. I am terrible, please feel free to throw things at me...)

I have been thinking about this forever, because my H/D preferences really bug me sometimes because I can't give a definitive answer, so I was trying to work out why. I do very much love a sarcastic Draco turning non-verbal as he's getting fucked into the mattress though...

And yeah, I feel you on the absence of smoochfest - I think because it's based on romance, maybe those stories tend to make Draco a bit softer around the edges than in other tropes, which is why we get more bottom!Draco there? I don't know, I'll have to think about it... after I've finished writing, obviously! :D

[capitu]

You know, I hadn't really noticed that smooch has more bottom!Draco at all. I wasn't referring to that, but more in the sense that, since smoochfest is not a fest devoted to one way or the other, there are equal chances to read any, and even if one dynamic gets more written than the other, it's not focused on that, you know? Whereas in a fest like DTH, well! LOL it goes without saying. :D

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

Ahh right, yes, DTH does tend to flood the timeline with top!Draco, which can make it seem like there's an imbalance. I'm sure one of snowgall's statistic posts said once that smoochfest tends to bring out more bottom!Draco fics though. I could be completely wrong about that however!

[oceaxe.livejournal.com]

I loved this post. I think about this stuff all the time. And I share your preferences/attraction to mouthy, brainy dudes being the "bottom" (or physically submissive no matter the actual penetrative act position) and the muscly/more grounded dude being the "top" (or sexually aggressive) - with the exception of H/D.

I used to prefer Draco to be the more passive partner but now I vastly prefer him to be the more aggressive, active partner. In my case, it's definitely because I identify with Draco and have lately been more attuned to my own sexually dominant orientation. But I also identify more with Arthur than Eames, and more with John Blake than Bane, so why would I continue to see those characters as being sexually more passive? I dunno.

I'm just inarticulately echoing what you've said here because it resonated with me, I'm not sure I have much to add, haha!

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

These kinds of things are absolutely the best things to think about when you're procrastinating, LOL! (And 'physically submissive' is a much better term than 'bottom', because it infers a wider range of sexual acts other than penetration, so thank you for that!)

I think when it comes to H/D, the characterisation is the most important thing for me as to whom I'd prefer to top and/or bottom. Like, is Draco a self assured ministry worker? Or is he a drama-queen wedding planner? Is Harry the Head Auror? Or has he hidden himself away on a dirigible plum farm? Other factors are of course important - maybe having to appear self-assured in meetings means that Draco really wants to come home and have someone else in charge for a while, for example - but when it comes to H/D, I really think that it's the story and how the characterisations help tell that story that dictate my preferences, turning them into a case-by-case basis. Which is simultaneously annoying and an incredibly awesome facet of this ship, haha!

[ldydark1.livejournal.com]

I am very relaxed about who tops and bottoms. It can be either Harry or Draco. Sometimes I generalize Harry being a bottom, because he is shorter than Draco. But seriously, I don't mind or have a preference who tops or bottoms. As long as it fits the fiction being written by the author. ****** I do have a hard time, when the author writes that Draco is shorter than Harry. I find that in older H/ D fictions, especially over at fanfiction.com, which I rarely frequent anymore. ***** That is hard for me to visualize and accept. Throughout the fiction, my mind keeps protesting and telling me that Draco is taller than Harry. *****

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

Interesting! I have to say I agree with Draco being taller than Harry in my head (although not by too much, maybe a couple of inches, vaguely), although that doesn't ever factor in to thinking of them as either a Top or a bottom. That could be because as a 5ft 10 woman, being roughly as tall as my male sexual partners has kind of canceled that out for me (although my husband is actually 6 inches taller than me, I don't really notice it or think about it due to my own height compared to other people).

And it's not that I mind, really, because I don't, it's just, you know, if I had to choose one, which would I pick? And thinking about the why of my answer was interesting.

(I never read m/m fics on FF. I have yet to find one that was well written tbh, LOL)

[ldydark1.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with you. ' Although not by too much, maybe a couple of inches, vaguely' , that is how I 'see' Draco in height. **** I was a newbie when I discovered fanfiction.com, then I left it for the site called ' Restricted Section' , back in 2007, I think. Then I discovered that a ton of writers who wrote at Restricted Section, had their bases at Live Journal, which I joined eagerly.

[birdsofshore]

This is a very important topic and obviously takes precedence over writing erised ;)

When I joined fandom I thought this topping and bottoming preference thing was weird and childish. I was so above that.

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA.

I am such a dick.

It took me a while to realise that I had a preference for Top!Draco, and longer still not to feel ashamed about that. I think I'm getting worse, though. I used to just prefer it, then STRONGLY prefer it, but this year I read the most perfect fic which was everything I adore and the dynamic between them was so perfect and it was also so well-written... and then HARRY TOPPED. OMG, I was honestly really AFFECTED by it. It genuinely upset me and I had to stop reading for a while. I had been so immersed in the story and then that happened and... ugh, I was a mess.

I tried to pick it apart afterwards, and I think it wasn't so much the actual fact of penetration (I seriously HOPE not, because I don't want to become one of those people who leaves prompts saying "ON NO ACCOUNT MUST A PENIS TOUCH DRACO'S BODY"). I think it was the (to me) sudden and OOC personality switch that came with the sex. I like the sex to reflect their characterisation and the dynamic between them, and I'm not talking about one being 'the girl' or 'the weak one'. I mean something like a need for control, or a need to give up control. A need to submit / dominate, or to be the aggressor maybe? If that gets flipped around without warning and without justification then I'm left feeling unhappy.

Conversely, I can read stories where Draco likes to bottom, where Draco is the sub, where they switch, whatever, as long as the characterisation fits and I can make it mesh with my view of the pairing. I've also WRITTEN bottom Draco, lots of times, and it's usually my head canon for them when they first start fucking if they're still young. I like to write inexperienced!Harry, and experienced!Draco, and I often imagine Draco would let Harry fuck him first, partly because it will just be easier, more pleasurable, and less likely to freak Harry out, haha. But in my mind he's totally doing it as a stratagem to get Harry hooked, not because he secretly desires the hero to take him up the arse.

I'm making no sense. I am a mess of contradictions. Basically, what I beg is, don't give me a delicious Toppy!Draco and then have him turn feminine or weak in the bedroom. Not that I think bottoming is feminine or weak. OH GOD I CAN'T EXPLAIN LOLOL.

I really should go and write my erised as well :D

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

Much more important, I absolutely agree! :D

I've always had an interest in fic preferences, and I think it's because things like stereotypes affect myself and the people I love IRL. My brother is gay. He's a computer nerd, wears hipster glasses and grandad cardigans and barely reaches six feet tall. His fiance is 6ft 4, and is an MMA fighter, and he gets really annoyed when straight people assume that he's the Top in their relationship, just because Joseph is slighter and therefore less 'manly' than he is. And so it's always at the back of my mind when reading fic: Do I like this just because it fits my subconscious heteronormativity? So I'm always kind of consciously checking myself to make sure that it's an aesthetic I like because I like it, and not because society has programmed me to look for. (I also do it for skin colour: Do I like reading about boys with pale skin getting marked up because I like it, or because people have always pointed out my own dark skin tone in negative ways?)

I get what you mean about that fic you read though, and I think you mean it how I mean it - the dynamic in the bedroom should fit the characterisations in the rest of the fic. And I think that preferences like these really come down to the types of stories we like to read; I know you like an unredeemed!Draco, and I think that Top!Draco really helps showcase that characterisation, so it makes sense to have him written that way, it flows better.

Okay, definitely time to get back to writing my erised *grr* ♥

[birdsofshore]

Yes, stereotypes can be damaging. I love writers who play with subverting those expectations - I've blethered on about Alexis Hall on LJ before, but I love his book For Real which has a young, inexperienced, hard up Dom with an older, experienced, confident and financially successful sub. It works so well. I just read another of his where the more feminine and physically slight partner tops the butch, muscly, tattooed guy - who is scared out of his wits about it. It was a great scene!

the dynamic in the bedroom should fit the characterisations in the rest of the fic. And I think that preferences like these really come down to the types of stories we like to read; I know you like an unredeemed!Draco, and I think that Top!Draco really helps showcase that characterisation

Agreed, 100%. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy sub!Draco stories, or top!Harry, but the writer has more work to convince me that I like it, because it doesn't always fit with my expectations or preferences for characterisation.

Thank you for the interesting discussion. Now totally back to erised. (The mods are watching!!)

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

Pansies, right? I just read that book! I actually didn't finish it, because the internalised homophobia and sexism turned the reading experience into a chore rather than a pleasure, which was just a completely personal issue. I did read that scene though, and I loved their date out too, when Fen, the slight, small, pretty boy tells the huge Alfie that "I'm not actually gay." I clapped with glee over that! (Also, have you read Glitterland yet? It's my fave read of 2016, and my Essex accent is beautifully delivered!)

That doesn't mean I can't enjoy sub!Draco stories, or top!Harry, but the writer has more work to convince me that I like it, because it doesn't always fit with my expectations or preferences for characterisation. -- Yes, exactly! And that means that we automatically search for the ones we know are easily going to hit our hot spots.

(I am totally writing erised as we speak, honest! *coughs then runs and hides*)

[birdsofshore]

Yes, Pansies! I finished it and, on the whole, enjoyed it, but it was by no means my favourite AH book. I found the whole premise problematic (the bullying issue), and their contrived separation and then the romcom cliche of all piling into the car (you may have missed that if you didn't finish it) made me roll my eyes. But the switching scene was a JOY for me. I really enjoyed that. It was meaningful and hot and subversive, and it made the whole book (for me personally) worth reading for that scene alone.

I do love Glitterland - do you have the audiobook? I can highly recommend! The narrator does both Ash and Darrian beautifully IMO. I actually had problems with Glitterland until I heard the audiobook and really was able to empathise with Ash's emotional pain. Before then I had problems with his selfishness and his frustrating behaviour. The audiobook got me on his side again!

[birdsofshore]

(oh and did you read the part in Pansies where Fen dissed Ash's books? LOL! I hooted and winced at the same time)

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

I finally stopped reading after Alfie went to visit his mum, who was all, "I can't accept that you're gay because who's going to do the cooking?" and I was grinding my teeth so hard my jaw hurt. I mean, ffs, the dude's been living on his own for over a decade, who's been doing the cooking up until now, you stupid twat! And yeah, as a bullying victim myself, I found it hard to relate to Fen forgiving Alfie at all - 20 years on and I would still happily set my tormentors on fire tbh. But yes, the sex scene was totally hot; I think my fave part was how Alfie was saying things like, "uh okay, carry on" because "oh God fuck me harder" sounded like a scene from a cheap porno, and by the end it was exactly what he was screaming! It was fucking awesome.

I don't have the audiobook - I have an auditory processing disorder that pretty much renders those impossible for me - but I had no problems relating to Ash. I thought AH really approached his bi-polar incredibly well, which was important for me - one of the reasons I have so many tattoos is because I suffer from hypergraphia just like Ash, so it was so cool to have someone so much like me as an MC!

[birdsofshore]

Haha yes, Alfie losing his cool was amazing.

Yes, the cooking bit. *eye roll* I imagine some people's parents are genuinely that dense about it, he's possibly writing from people's experiences! But it was no fun. I can see why you stopped. I liked the ~concept of someone being in love with their bully, it has its appeal, in a nasty, dub con, transgressive and twisted way, but it left a nasty taste in my mouth in this story which was basically a romance.

And I think Ash was written very well, and the problem was mine. I used to suffer from clinical depression for a lot of my life and I have problems relating to depressed characters because I can't let myself empathise with them. I close off and become all dismissive and defensive instead, and feel angry with them. Ash got to me quite a lot, I hated his behaviour and couldn't empathise, but hearing Nick Boulton portray him made me soften. I love that he was relatable for you, must have been a good experience to find that complexity in a MC.

[gracerene]

OMG, I totally feel you on all of this! I went through the exact same thing with preferences until landing on a toppy!Draco preference, and lately it's becoming even stronger. I had a similar experience with a fic recently, and I totally came to the same conclusion, that the author had been building a sort of toppy!Draco dynamic between Draco and Harry throughout the fic, and then he became sort of needy and submissive during the sex scene and it was a huge disconnect for me. Which then make me feel guilty, because I know IRL how people behave outside the bedroom has no bearing on what they enjoy when it comes to sex, but I think that is sort of suspended when it comes to fic, because, for me, sex is an extension of the story. IDK, I also have difficulties expressing what I mean...it's hard! (lol, no pun intended)

[nia_kantorka]

Mmmh, I've been reading fics for more than 3 years now and still prefer my characters to switch. Often there are stories where it's fitting if one character tops more or bottoms more because of the dynamics/ their relationship and that's absolutely fine. I find it annoying though when sex scenes are always the same (and it's a story with lots of sex). Actually, I prefer stories with dynamics that can surprise me.
The foremost I love characters that are smart. And with these everything can happen. I don't care if someone is taller or stronger or whatever the other is not and makes that one more 'effeminate".
That's why I love FrostIron as a pairing so much. Such smart characters and everything is possible. One is stronger, but has the more femine look, the other is only human, but has the braver heart. So you never know how these dynamics unfold in the bedroom. I love it.

When I started my LJ, I didn't even know there were fest about who tops or bottoms. Nowadays I refuse to follow these fests as I get high blood pressure when I read why someone's arse should be sacrosanct and the other's not so much. I totally agree that some characters and some stories lead to one way or the other. And yet, I love it when there is at least sometimes a bit variety in their penetrative love making (and their love making in general). I absolutely love it when the more powerful, dominant or whatever of a pairing is prone to let it all go when it comes to sex. If it's presented with reason, why not?

If one character loves it to be the bottom, they should totally go for it. I would probably too, where I a man, because a) I'm a lazy fuck and would love for the other to do most of the work (lol) and b) a prostate must make for a hell of a good time, and c) ah no, tmi.
If one loves to top, go for it. But a refusal to at least try it the other way is unimaginative and boring. It can't be the best relationship when one refuses to trust their partner that they would take care of their body.

Ah well, of course it's all related to the characters and where they come from. And yet I think everyone (no matter their gender) has enough of both sides in them; that they sometimes want to take what's presented to them and sometimes want to be taken.

I'll stop my rambling now. Intersting to see so many different views on the topic though. :D

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

Interesting! I have to say, I also have issues with fests that cater to a specific Top in the pairing, but that's because after writing for DTH, I realised that my writing style doesn't cater to that - I let the story and the characters tell me who's Topping, so having that particular restriction made the writing process incredibly frustrating and made me very anxious.

I do have a slight problem with switching sometimes, even though I both read and write it myself. I think it's because I know a lot of queer people, and I've had same sex relationships myself, and I know that true switching doesn't happen all that often IRL. Switching it up tends to be reserved for special occasions, or when one person has had a particularly bad day, and so it always feels a little unrealistic to me to read about two characters swapping around as the mood takes them. It doesn't bother me too much, because as I said, in fiction, sexual dynamics is often used as a writing tool, as a metaphor for the emotions of the moment, as it were.

Also, I think people have different preferences when it comes to what happens to their own body. Male or female, gay or straight, some people enjoy penetration and some don't. As an example, a close friend of mine pegs her husband almost as often as they have vaginal sex because he loves it, but she hates having anything near her ass. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to have two gay characters together where one man just doesn't like receiving anal play.

I do find people's opinions on this hella interesting! ♥

[nia_kantorka]

Ah, I get that. That people have their preferences and maybe just vary from these occasionally. But actually, that's enough for me. I don't need a 50:50 rate or something similar like that. Just that people don't dismiss the other if they would like to try something else every once in a while.

It doesn't have to be penetrative at all (though - in all honesty - I love to read it, lol). It's more that I don't like it if it's all strict just this way or just that way. Even in a story, it's about life. People change, situations change, even preferences might change. That's why I love to see a broad range in the stories I read, the MCs' relationship, and in the characters' sex life too. :D

[kitty_fic]

I'm really late to this party, but I think about top/bottom dynamics a lot, so this is a really interesting read! I can totally see your way of thinking and I'm thinking it might explain some of my own preferences also.

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

I find it really interesting to think about! Also kinks in general really, what I like and don't like and why, and how they're different to kinks other people like... oh, and I really spend an awful lot of time thinking about why some fics with a certain kink or position or whatever that I usually don't like actually work for me when the majority of them don't, you know? It's just so fascinating to me... ♥